Developing a Healthy Sexuality | Interview with Hope Orr - Owner of Elevated Boudoir.

Hope Orr is the owner and photographer of Elevated Boudoir in Sandy, Utah. Through her own journey, Hope has been able to work through shame and insecurities around her body and sexuality in order to step more fully into who she is. 

 

Hope is passionate in helping women of all backgrounds embrace and celebrate their body. Her dream is to invite all women to connect with themselves on a deeper level, and show up more fully and unapologetically. Hope offers Boudoir Photography as a way to allow women to see themselves as they really are; brilliant, empowered, sexy, and strong. 

 

 

You can see more of her work or book a session by visiting

www.elevatedboudoir.com

 

Hope has a private Facebook group for women interested in connecting with others in learning to embrace themselves and their body more fully. You can join by visiting 

https://www.facebook.com/groups/elevatedboudoir/

 

Full Transcript: 

 

0:00:00.5 Narrator: Welcome to Improving Intimacy, a podcast to help single and married Latter-day Saints strengthen their family connections and marriages. Daniel A. Burgess is the host of Improving Intimacy. Daniel's a marriage and family therapist, father, husband and author. Here's Daniel on this episode of Improving Intimacy.

[music]

0:00:28.5 Daniel A. Burgess: Welcome to another episode of Improving Intimacy. Today, I'm excited to have Hope Orr here, and to hear her story and what she does, and I think everybody in our audience will be curious to learn. And I think what we're gonna do here is we're gonna have this podcast, we're gonna give it an opportunity for people to hear after we publish. And then I would personally like to invite Hope back and maybe do a live question and answer online with everybody. But let's go ahead and kick this off and... Hope, who are you, and what do you do?

0:01:02.4 Hope Orr: I am a boudoir photographer. I work with women who are wanting to celebrate their body, who want to show up more fully and, I guess, whole in the world, and... Yeah, I don't know.

[laughter]

0:01:22.4 DB: That's exciting. This is great. So I'm bringing you in because one of the biggest things I see within my Improved... In the Improving Intimacy group is how frequently both men and women are curious, interested and wanting to find a good photographer, a boudoir photographer. And so there's a lot of questions around that, so I was excited to see somebody of your background, you did serve a mission, and you're now providing this service to women who desire and want it. What got you here? What made you decide? Were you a photographer before? This natural transition? What was it?

0:02:10.1 HO: Yeah, that's a good question. I have been a photographer for 10 years. I grew up... My dad is a producer, a film producer for the church, and so he actually kind of mentored me as I grew up on how to take good photos. And so I've done a lot of different type of photography throughout my life but boudoir photography is really where I find the most meaning and fulfillment, and I'm most passionate about it. And so it's more of a recent, in the last few years, journey that I've been on, offering this to other people, and then also experiencing it for myself.

0:02:54.5 DB: So tell me a little bit more about that journey, that experience. As you're talking, the audience obviously can't see, but your face lightens up, it glows, as you're talking about, "This is a great opportunity." And we're gonna get into maybe some of the pushback or the controversies around it. You're shaking your head, "Yes, yes." I personally know that as I've entered into this profession and kind of stretched the boundaries around sexual health and insight... So what am I seeing when I hear you say journey and experience and passion? What's making you glow about it?

0:03:29.9 HO: Yeah. So when I returned from my mission a number of years ago, I remember my mission president inviting me to pray every day to get married. And I think that's kind of funny that we tell 20-year-olds to pray for that.

0:03:45.5 DB: Yes. Get married and six months when you return, and... Yes.

0:03:51.4 HO: Yeah. So I was doing that and one day it occurred to me... I realized, "Okay, if this actually happened, let's say God answers my prayer, I'm gonna find someone this year, get married this year, am I ready for that?" And I realized I had a lot of shame around my body, around my sexuality, around my sexual desires, and also a lot of... How do you put it? I did not feel like I was really educated or prepared for that type of stuff in my life.

0:04:31.2 DB: When you say stuff, you're talking about sex? Intimacy?

0:04:36.3 HO: Yes, yeah. Yup, all of the above, about... I guess with the idea of, okay, I'm gonna get married, and all of a sudden, I'm gonna start having sex with a man, and I don't know really anything about my own body, about sex, about so many different things. And so it was quite miraculous. Shortly after that occurred to me, I was given people and resources in my life to be able to start a self-development journey for myself and learn, and also release a lot of the shame around my sexuality.

0:05:18.1 DB: So, pause, 'cause you did something that I'm very impressed with, and that I usually only see occur after marriage, is you had this insight, this awareness that you weren't ready, you didn't understand your own sexual health, your own sexual desires. Can you tell us a little bit more about that? Was it literally that? Was it an epiphany? Was it in your prayers? Was it walking down the street? What allowed you to have that insight? If I could ask you. I realize that's still ambiguous, but what was that discovery before marriage?

0:06:01.2 HO: I know part of it was looking at, "Okay, how do I want to create my life?" And realizing like, "Okay, if I'm going to have what I want in life, I need to be in a place right now where I'm ready for it." And I think that that is applicable to any point in our life, like, "Okay, you want more money, alright, do you feel ready for that?" Or different things. And so I believe that we have to look at what we want to create and then look at what beliefs, what narrative are we saying in our head that is keeping us from getting to that point. So I've done a lot of self-development in my life, and so that was definitely part of it. It was, "Okay, if I want to get married, what is holding me back?"

0:06:54.6 DB: Amazing, I can't tell you how important that is. I see, maybe if we categorize it in two or three ways, those who don't have that awareness at all or have this general perspective of things will work out in the marriage, or we'll discover these things. They don't even... And by the way, this is not a criticism. This is just how we're trained in relationships. Our parents never taught us how to think about this. So this is why I'm finding it's really impressive and fascinating, is you're falling into... And so there's a second group that may do what you just did, yeah, I don't think I'm really ready for marriage. There are aspects about myself... I know we've had children who've been married, who were concerned about body image. And so there's that group where they're kind of aware, but their course of action to improve that is either absent or they don't know how, or, again, they think it's gonna just work out in the marriage.

0:07:55.0 HO: Yup.

0:07:56.5 DB: But you fall into... I'm going off the cuff here, there's probably more dynamics to this, but it seems like you fall into a third group where you not only had this insight, this wonderful insight, but you had the awareness of asking questions that may be stretched you or encourage yourself to be prepared way before that ever happened. That's fascinating to me. I know you kind of answered that already, but where did you get it... Do you think that's intrinsic to you or do you feel like your parents taught you? What allowed you to have that skill?

0:08:33.7 HO: Let's see. I definitely grew up in a home where we were always encouraged to learn and grow and improve ourselves, and particularly, seek after truth and study for ourselves. And so that was a big thing, was I guess finding answers for myself. So that's part of it.

0:08:58.6 DB: I love that. So, you were encouraged, throughout your life, to be an individual, and to create your own relationship with yourself or with Heavenly Father, or whatever that is, is you're asking yourself the questions and determining your own path. I love that. Is that about right?

0:09:15.7 HO: Yeah, and I think also a big part of it with my own faith journey, with my own sexual health journey, as I learned more, especially about having a healthy relationship with my body and with my sexuality, realizing that I get to be my own person. And so I think that that also plays a huge role in that, in realizing that I can find the truth for myself, I can find answers. I don't have to look to other people outside of me to feel good about myself or to create whatever life it is that I want to.

0:09:52.2 DB: Was that immediate? I know I cut you off before you started going to more of what you did. You got resources. Did you have that awareness before those resources or was that what kind of developed out of seeking out resources and helping, or both?

0:10:08.0 HO: I'd say both. It was a mix, for sure. Yeah.

0:10:10.4 DB: And do you mind if we explore what you did to improve and stretch yourself and to be more authentic. What course of action did you take?

0:10:21.4 HO: One huge thing was learning about mindfulness and meditation, learning about what was going on in my mind, what fears I had, what insecurities I had. And then another, I was in a Facebook group and someone had shared a post... I don't know if I can share names or not?

0:10:39.1 DB: Absolutely. Yes. Yes.

0:10:40.3 HO: Okay. Awesome.

0:10:43.0 DB: Please. The whole purpose of my group is to provide good resources. Share away.

0:10:46.6 HO: Great. Awesome. I was in a women's Facebook group and somebody shared that there was going to be a workshop. It's a non-profit organization and she's a sex educator. And so I knew that I needed to talk to someone just to learn and figure out my body and stuff, and I was really scared. I needed someone who was safe, and so I emailed her and I said, "Hey, I'm really interested in this workshop but I feel a little funny being this young, single, Mormon girl showing up to... " It was like... I don't know. I think it was like a honeymoon, something having to do with sex, obviously, and I was like, "I don't wanna be this uneducated little young girl showing up," and so she invited me to come to have a one-on-one session with her, and that completely changed my life.

0:11:41.7 DB: Thank you, and please don't hold back your tears if you don't want to. This is emotional work. This is powerful. This is exciting and the audience wants to hear that. What would you tell somebody who's interested in doing a course like that? How to be prepared? Or what was it like for you?

0:12:02.8 HO: Meaning working with... Going in to work with her?

0:12:06.0 DB: Yeah. Yeah. Was it awkward or kind of... Tell us what you would expect, or what a new person would expect going into something like that.

0:12:14.9 HO: That's a great question. Well, for one thing, she made it so... I just felt so safe. I didn't even know her but I just felt so safe and so understood, especially with her response, 'cause I told her like, "Hey, I'm kind of scared," and she responded and said, "I totally get it, no worries, I can relate." And so just knowing that she understood where I was coming from, and then going in and having that one-on-one session with her, where we just sat and talked. And the first few sessions I had, it was releasing just a lot of shame around all sorts of things, like thinking that I had a pornography addiction when I was young, and looking back, I had never even seen pornography. But I thought that I was... Or thinking I had a masturbation addiction and all these different things, and feeling so much shame. And being able to talk with someone who was educated, who understood so many of these things. And it wasn't, I don't know... It wasn't like it was a confessional or anything like that... [chuckle]

0:13:19.4 DB: No, I follow you.

0:13:19.9 HO: Okay.

0:13:20.4 DB: You're having these discoveries...

0:13:22.0 HO: Yeah.

0:13:22.4 DB: And you're recognizing as... So you said it was a workshop but it sounds like it was kind of one-on-one.

0:13:27.6 HO: This one... Yeah. Because I was afraid to do the workshop, she said, "Come in and have a one-on-one session with me." So this was just me and her talking.

0:13:35.4 DB: So, as you're taking it, you're discovering, "Oh my goodness, I really didn't have a porn addiction, and masturbation wasn't even an issue. It was just part of my healthy development."

0:13:46.1 HO: Yeah. And I grew up thinking I was gonna go to hell or I wasn't gonna... I wouldn't be able to have kids or... You know, something like I was gonna be punished because like...

0:13:55.9 DB: Because you're having this behavior.

0:13:56.7 HO: Yeah. Yeah. And so there was just so much with that, and then also just so much shame about how I learned about sex, all those different things that we all have experiences growing up with whatever, with our bodies, with sex, where we tend to feel shame around those things. And so being able to talk with someone and be validated in my experience, and just being heard, and having a safe place, and also a safe place to ask questions, I asked all sorts of questions and... So, yeah... So the beginning was a lot of...

0:14:28.2 DB: You're the perfect client. You're coming in with questions.

0:14:32.6 HO: So many people have told me that.

[chuckle]

0:14:33.9 DB: And it's fascinating because we get a lot of people... And again, this is not a criticism, it's... One thing, as a provider of somebody who's doing... My passion is to improve sexual health and sexual awareness, and I get so... So many times clients coming in, male and female, and I want to improve this, but they don't want to ask the hard questions, because there are some preconceived ideas there. Now, you brought up pornography. I'm gonna put you on the spot here. We talked about this before, and you get to say whether or not you wanna an answer. I think this is important because I work with so many people. Pornography addiction is defined as anything from I had a lustful thought a year ago, I saw an Instagram model three months ago, so I'm looking at hardcore porn five hours a day and masturbating multiple times to it. What was it about the behavior that gave you the impression you were addicted to porn or you had a porn problem?

0:15:39.7 HO: Yeah. So part of it was I masturbated all growing up, and I thought that that was really bad. And then, as far as the pornography part, a big thing was feeling aroused. I just translated, "Oh my gosh, I see... " Whatever. So the way I found out that I didn't have a pornography issue was actually sitting in a session with an LDS therapist, and she had made a comment of, "You've probably seen more than girls your age, than the typical girl your age, as far as inappropriate images," or whatever. And I sat there and I was like...

0:16:21.8 DB: So I'm gonna... 'Cause we like specificity...

0:16:23.8 HO: I know I'm jumping all around. [chuckle]

0:16:25.1 DB: No, no, no, jumping around is beautiful. I love it. What I like to do is specificity. Did I say the word right? [chuckle] We're talking about these things, 'cause again, as you get more familiar with this group, you're gonna see... And the problem around sexual health is we all have our own definitions, so when you say inappropriate, what I think I'm hearing is saying you've probably seen more women naked or... What do you mean when you say inappropriate?

0:16:53.8 HO: Yeah. Great. Good question. So, like a PG-13 movie, if a couple starts making out, or whatever... Like not even... Not even like sex, but stuff that would turn me on...

0:17:06.7 DB: Visually-stimulating...

0:17:07.8 HO: Yes. I...

0:17:09.1 DB: For you.

0:17:09.8 HO: Yeah. Yeah. And so the therapist had... 'Cause I had told her, "I think I have a pornography addiction," and she, one day, said, "You've probably seen more than maybe the typical girl your age," and I was like, "No, actually, I don't think I have. I've only seen things in like PG-13 movies, but I hadn't ever seen someone having sex or... I don't know, not even naked genitals."

0:17:39.7 DB: It was just the fact that you were getting aroused from what you were seeing.

0:17:43.6 HO: Yeah. Yeah, and because I had that desire to see or to keep watching, or whatever, and... But...

0:17:52.1 DB: So that was going against the For Strength of Youth, by...

0:17:54.8 HO: Yes. Yeah. Yes.

0:17:55.7 DB: And so that's... I think that's where we're getting at here.

0:17:57.3 HO: Yes. So, yeah. It's... By definition, I don't know that I would say it was a pornography addiction, if...

0:18:05.1 DB: But if you were to compare it to the For Strength of Youth and you're seeking out these feelings... These...

0:18:07.4 HO: Yes, then it's probably not... Yeah.

0:18:10.5 DB: So the guilt was springing from that, and as you were talking with your various coach or therapist, this was coming to light, that...

0:18:17.7 HO: Yeah.

0:18:18.0 DB: And so your LDS therapist was saying... So continue with that. What was she implying by, "You've seen more... "

0:18:26.2 HO: You know, I don't even remember what the conversation was, but that was a moment in time where I realized like, "Oh, I actually don't think I have seen more than the typical girl my age, but I have placed so much shame on feeling desires, on feeling turned on, you know, aroused."

0:18:47.6 DB: It's bad.

0:18:48.3 HO: Yeah. I remember, when I was a little girl, praying that God would take those arousal feelings away. I hated them. And I remember saying, "Heavenly Mother, why? Why do you give those to me?" And so... Yeah. So this journey that I started going on after my mission was really amazing in being able to release so much shame around my body and my sexuality, and then also really just stepping more fully into being a whole, confident, beautiful woman.

[chuckle]

0:19:23.2 DB: I can't emphasize how much and how important that message is. We hear this... I hear this a lot from young men. They get an erection and it's one thing, and some people feel like, "Yeah, I'm making excuses for young men." Well, usually, it's coming from females, saying it doesn't have to happen, but young men will experience an erection for not just a few seconds, 30 minutes, an hour, as a teenager. And what do you do with that? I'm hearing clearly not the same biological response, but as a female, I think this happens a whole lot more than women are either comfortable in sharing or... Rightfully so. So, in a long way, I'm saying thank you. Thank you for that vulnerability, 'cause I think there's a lot of women out there who need to hear that, the fact that they struggle with these urges, the sensations, the desires, and you're praying for it to go away, that occurs too in women. We don't talk about that a lot, 'cause it's visually noticeable in men. It's like, "It's there, what do you do?" And it doesn't just go away. So you're having these discoveries, and I appreciate you sharing that 'cause that is something I think is important for both men and women to hear.

0:20:41.8 DB: It happens there, and it needs to be talked about, so what do you do? I, jokingly, but I'm being serious when I say a young man can go into a donut shop and an erection comes. Are they breaking the principles in the For Strength of Youth manual by wanting to go get a... Not trying to be silly, but if you were raised as a young man who got erections out of the... The joke's there, if the wind blows, you're horny, and there's truth to that because your body is developing and you're discovering that. You're discovering now, in your resources, in your therapy, that that's normal. There's nothing wrong with that.

0:21:23.7 HO: Well, and I think so many women when... Like growing up, when you do feel those feelings of arousal, will try and shut it off, will try and numb it a little, try to ignore it, and then that is such a disservice to ourselves when people are ready to get married and to be sexually active and realizing... Not even realizing, but having a hard time being able to feel those feelings again. Or when they do feel those feelings, and it's in a place where they're allowed to, they feel so dirty and unworthy of being able to feel those feelings.

0:21:57.2 DB: Right there, that's the concept I think is so hard for a lot of potentially married and even married couples to understand. It's 'cause we convey this idea that it will work out. I can't tell you how many times I've heard that, but you're well aware that's not the case. And it goes against every spiritual, doctrinal, and psychological principle out there, is, we train ourselves to do one thing and we expect one day, just because of one event, we will do the opposite. You spend a good decade of your life before you get married, resisting, rejecting, suppressing these feelings. It doesn't just come back beautifully.

0:22:37.9 HO: Yeah.

0:22:38.2 DB: So now we're at this phase, you're discovering, you're exploring, you get the right help. Where does it go from there? What do you wanna tell us?

0:22:46.5 HO: Yeah. So after I worked through a lot of the heavy stuff, releasing a lot of shame around my sexuality, being a photographer, I decided that I wanted to do a boudoir session for myself as a young, single adult. And so I remember setting up for my camera, putting the timer on, and running over to the bed.

0:23:14.4 DB: You're literally taking your own shots.

0:23:17.7 HO: Yeah, and I was doing it for myself too... We don't often give ourselves the opportunity, as men or women, to really see our body fully and appreciate it and love it for where it's at. And so, my first experience doing my own little boudoir session was in a hotel room, I was on a work trip, and that changed the way that I saw my body. And of course, I had been doing my work in other areas to more fully love and accept my body, but that was something that I was finally in a place to see myself and to own my body and see that it's beautiful. And I guess the short version is I, over the years, have been able to see how that has helped other women and myself. And so that is something that I'm so passionate about offering to women as an opportunity to set fully into their body and to really celebrate it and see it for the beautiful body that it is.

0:24:29.1 DB: Now, I wanna jump into that, but before we do, I'm gonna bring up... 'Cause I know there's a lot of people out here asking, "Have you gotten criticism for this being just a version of porn? And how have you addressed that?" I'm just gonna leave it open like that. What are the obstacles you faced as you've... So what we're hearing is this has been life-changing for you. There's clearly a blessing that's come along with this. Now, I don't wanna make an assumption, have you gotten pushback?

0:25:01.2 HO: Yeah.

0:25:02.3 DB: And do you wanna tell us a little bit about that?

0:25:03.8 HO: Yeah. So, for a long time, I wasn't really sharing with the public or my circle that I was doing these or offering these...

0:25:14.3 DB: It's more word of mouth, or whatever?

0:25:16.1 HO: Yeah, word of mouth, and I was doing portrait photography for...

0:25:19.7 DB: And why was that? Because of the shame around it?

0:25:22.6 HO: Yeah, because I was afraid that... Something that I was afraid about when I started my sexual health journey, was that people would think I was promiscuous because, "Oh, this is a single girl, she's not getting married in the near future, she shouldn't be looking into this stuff right now," and so that was... The same with the boudoir stuff, is, "Oh, you're not married. Why would you want to do this unless you're being promiscuous?" And maybe that's just a story in my head.

0:25:56.5 DB: Oh, it's not just a story in your head. It's alive and real, as I think you already know.

0:26:00.6 HO: Yeah. Yeah. And so it wasn't until this last year that I decided this has been so meaningful and fulfilling, I'm going to do this, pursue it more full-time. And so I realized or I decided that if I wanted to help other women be brave enough to do this, I needed to be brave enough to share, and so I shared a photo and I was in a robe, I was very covered up, but I shared on my Facebook page and Instagram, and just shared my story of how I became a boudoir photographer and why it's so important to me. And I did get some messages and some people in my circle reaching out to different people around me, saying, "Help a pornography photographer," and people telling me they were concerned about me.

0:26:52.9 DB: Of course, and... Well, I say that kind of sarcastically, right? So, how did you respond to them? Or did you?

0:27:01.0 HO: Yeah. Well, it was an opportunity for me to look inside and get more clear on, "Okay, am I? Maybe I am," just being willing to look at it. But yeah, so a response is, "Hey, thanks for sharing your thoughts. I would love to talk about this more," and some people didn't really want to talk about it, and I understand that they're coming from a place of their own triggers and their own hurt and pain, and their own understanding. And also it's like, "Okay, I'm more than willing to discuss this."

0:27:42.6 DB: Was the reception or criticism better or worse with men or women? Or was it kind of the same?

0:27:49.5 HO: It was mostly from men.

0:27:53.8 DB: Yeah, I'm smiling over here. Isn't that the truth? You can't even own your own sexuality, your own pursuits without somebody coming in.

0:28:04.6 HO: Yeah, and that was something that was really frustrating, is, "Okay... "

0:28:08.3 DB: So you were defending yourself mostly against what men were thinking? I mean, I'm sure there was women there too, but...

0:28:15.7 HO: There were women too. And I do have to say I don't get a ton of kickback, but I did in the beginning, and I've kind of decided, "Okay, I'm gonna keep pursuing this and keep just doing my thing because I'm seeing how it's changing lives."

0:28:31.8 DB: And forgive me. I don't wanna focus just on that, breaking through that barrier, but I do like to emphasize it at least briefly here because I think that's what holds so many of us back, is how do we get through that. I know, when I first published my article on masturbation and how it's a healthy part of development, we were teaching this, as a church, actually, as early as 1927, I think. And then things kind of... The way we approached it was different, but here I had a science-based article that was in line with my professional teachings. And I remember the day I was clicking the publish button, I was shaking because of the concern. I knew my relationship with my Heavenly Father, my family, the work I've done with clients, the beautiful progress I've seen, but there was this fear, this shame of how I would be perceived, and having a breakthrough, and we don't talk about that a lot, and I think it's important. Would it be fair to say it was scary or...

0:29:40.0 HO: Oh, absolutely. Yeah.

0:29:42.3 DB: How did you deal with that? I mean, there was a day that you made a decision to go live with your website and say, "This is who I am." Again, I don't wanna make the focus all about that, but I think it's important for at least others to see what it was like for you to go through. Do you mind sharing the emotions or feelings you went through?

0:30:01.4 HO: Yeah, with this and with my faith, I've had a lot of experiences and opportunities where I have had to show up and say, "This is me, and this is what I'm choosing to do with my life." And it's painful to see people I love and what they respond with. And so part of me, some of it was, "Okay, I'm just gonna do it," and I have to pretend that all those people that I see in my mind that are watching me aren't actually watching me, and then processing through the shame later, the feelings that are triggered once I'm like, "Oh yeah, yep, they're watching, and they're now responding." So...

0:30:47.7 DB: You come across as a very insightful person, I know I've already pointed out.

0:30:52.0 HO: Thank you.

0:30:52.1 DB: I think there's a lesson there, is you're internalizing it. You're not just saying, "Screw you." You're not... You're saying, "Okay, alright, I see what you're saying here," but then you go off and you do your internal work later. Is that a fair summary?

0:31:06.6 HO: Yeah, absolutely. And I would say for people who may have to do similar things in their lives, if I could go back to my younger self who felt scared about showing up more fully because of how people would treat me or think, I would invite myself to have more compassion for where I was at, and realize, "You actually don't... You don't need to show up, you don't need to explain yourself if you don't want to, and it will come." And that's something that I have seen, with my life. I've been doing boudoir photography for a number of years now, and maybe for someone, it's a shorter amount of time, but for me, it took a little bit for me to get into a place where I was really, I guess you could say, embodying where I stood and felt confident enough to make the step and to let myself be seen. So...

0:32:03.9 DB: That is beautiful. That's a lesson I hope people take away from this message here. That's beautiful. So what are you doing? What's been your experience working with clients? So tell us both... I'll let you choose, but both the successes and maybe the struggles of doing this work.

0:32:26.5 HO: Yeah.

0:32:28.3 DB: And oh, by the way, are you exclusively women, or do you work with men also?

0:32:33.3 HO: Yeah. So, right now, I work with women and couples. And so I know I've had a number of men reach out to me, which I think is amazing. I think that's so awesome that men have this desire because I know that it's not... Our body image and insecurities and things, that's not just a female problem. And so if men want to be photographed, what I will do is I'll do a couple of sessions, and then I'll take some photos of the wife... Or of woman and then of the man. I don't, at the moment, photograph men on their own. Yeah.

0:33:07.0 DB: So tell us some of your success stories and also struggles.

0:33:12.2 HO: Yeah. So, one of the most... My favorite things about working with women is being able to have them come in one-on-one, and being able to give them this experience. My boudoir sessions are a luxury experience. They get to come and they get their hair and make-up done. They get just well taken care of...

0:33:37.5 DB: Pampered?

0:33:38.4 HO: Yes. Pampered. Thank you. They come, they get pampered, and this is all about them and getting to celebrate their body and own their body, and that... Being able to see that with each individual woman is just so fun. And then bringing them into the studio after they get their hair and make-up done, and it's just... It's like this girl's party. I have my hair and make-up artist and me and our client, and we're pulling out outfits from the client's wardrobe, and just seeing how they're nervous, obviously, a little bit, but also just excited for something that's a new experience, and a fun experience. And so that is something that's very exciting and fun for me, that I love. And then I guess... Let's see, I also... With my clients, I've worked with a number of women in different phases of their life. I've worked with women who are pregnant, with women who just had a baby and want to embrace their body where it's at.

0:34:40.2 HO: I had one client... This is one of my favorite experiences. I photographed a client, and six months later, she was diagnosed with cancer. And so she had those photos. We don't always know what's gonna happen in the future, but being able to photograph right now, the phase we're in. And she was diagnosed with cancer, spent around nine months in bed getting treatments, and things, and she's now cancer-free. And about a month ago, I was able to photograph her again, and that was just such a special experience for both of us to have done it before, and then after everything, she's gone through and showing up and just hearing her story and her experience with... Like, "Oh, my body isn't perfect, it's not where I want it to be," but showing up anyways and allowing herself to be photographed. And she loves those pictures. And I guess both the pictures before she had cancer and the pictures afterward, that was just a really... I was honored to be able to be part of that.

0:35:52.0 DB: That is beautiful. Have you had clients where they struggled with self-image and were... In a more severe way and use this as an opportunity to help that, and did you see... Did you have an experience where doing this helped them overcome some of their negative self-images?

0:36:17.4 HO: Yeah, absolutely. I would say almost everyone I've worked with has had body image issues, and they'll often share with me beforehand like, "I'm a little insecure about this part of my body or... " But I had one client... And, oh, I will say I have permission to share these experiences, I made sure, I did that before I came. I had one client who you would never expect that she didn't like her body because, according to cultural expectations about how your body should be, she checks off that list. And I photographed her, and I remember in this session, I hadn't... The photos weren't edited or anything, but I turned the camera around to show her the photo, and she had tears in her eyes, and she said, "I've never liked photos of myself until this... Until today." And yeah, it was just amazing. And then I sent her the gallery and she reiterated that again. And then I got a text from her later, that she said I could share, and she said that she had struggled with eating disorders for 13 years of her life, and how this experience, being able to see her body and how beautiful and amazing it was, was just completely life-changing for her.

0:37:40.0 DB: That is... I can't imagine what that would be like for somebody. I think we do men a disservice, thinking, you brought it up a little earlier, we have image issues, but we're not expected to. We struggle with this thing. I think men would benefit from maybe something similar. Maybe not the exact same thing but... But to hear that, 'cause I work with quite a few clients, so I'm gonna kind of blend a topic here because I think you're probably one of the best people to inform me on this since you're working on the side of helping women to embrace their beauty, their naturalness, their authenticity. As a male therapist, it's interesting 'cause I'll get both... I'll get women who want to work with me to improve that aspect of their life, primarily because it's been men in their lives who've defined that for them, and so, in a therapeutic way, they use me as a confrontation to... Not in a negative sense, but you know what? You're a man, I don't wanna be afraid of this anymore, which is interesting because I value that, that's actually an appropriate role of therapy. We do have a lot of exposure in getting used to "I wanna be confident with this." While at the same time, I may get women who want to work on this, but because I am a male therapist, it's scary, it's hard to break through for that, and I always respect that, of course.

0:39:16.7 DB: What are your thoughts? Do you feel... I realize there's no absolute answer here, but if you were to coach a therapist, a coach who is a male, what would you say? I realize, this is the big question, how would you say is a good way to help women feel safe?

0:39:39.5 HO: In therapy, or in general, in life?

0:39:40.7 DB: In exploring their... If they're coming to therapy and wanting to improve their sexual health, their negative self-image, I guess maybe have you worked with a man, or is that why you haven't worked with men in the past? Are you wanting to find that as a safe space with other women? What are your thoughts? It's a really broad question.

0:40:05.1 HO: Yeah. No, that's a good question.

0:40:07.1 DB: In other words, how can we men support and help and be better?

0:40:09.4 HO: Yeah. My first thought is every woman... You already know this, but every woman is different in their need for how to heal that. And so some women, for them, they're in a space where they're ready to have a man who is a safe place to listen and to talk about it. And then, for other women... I probably wasn't one of those women, I needed to talk to another woman because that was safe for me.

0:40:39.6 DB: So let me give you a little bit more context. I have a lot of men reaching out to me who would crave for their wives or girlfriends, fiances to do this. And I sincerely... So there's a dynamic here. I think a lot of men are afraid to even suggest it because of the perception around sexual health and sexualizing everything. It's a fascinating place we're at because I think we're breaking through a lot of barriers, but I think men have this stigma already. If we talk about seeing a woman who is in lingerie as beautiful, we're automatically sexualizing her. So we'll get a husband who's saying, "Gosh, I know my wife, in all her pregnancies, in her middle age, is sexy. She is beautiful. She doesn't see it." I think a boudoir session would be helpful for her. But even suggesting that can come across as invasive or not appropriate. Is there... It seems like... What do men do? What do you suggest? I'm sure you've seen this dynamic play out. Is there... And again, I know everybody's different, but what would be your general suggestion in husbands or...

0:42:06.7 HO: I love this question. So, if my friend... If I had a friend who came to me to ask me that, I would say, "Start out by telling your wife, 'I'm afraid that you're going to think... Or I'm afraid... The story is in my head that I'm going to come across as this way, and this is not what my intention is, but I've found this amazing boudoir photographer, Hope, who helps women and focuses on helping them feel better and more confident in their body, and I really love you, and I would love for you to see how I see you.'"

0:42:46.3 DB: I like that. So, in other words, put it in terms that are value-centered to her. Not, "I want this... "

0:42:53.9 HO: Yeah.

0:42:53.9 DB: Or, "I think you should do this so you can see what I see." That's all 'me' centered. That's... As opposed to, "You are beautiful and I would love to see... I would love to show you what I see." It's still kind of 'me', but it's focusing on her. I really like that approach.

0:43:11.4 HO: And I think a huge thing, even take boudoir photography out of it, just having that communication, like creating that safe space between one another, where you can communicate, "Hey, I want to share this thing and I'm a little afraid of how it's gonna come across, so let me explain my fears a little bit, and then let me explain what I'm wanting to say." And of course, you're the therapist, I'm not the therapist, I don't know everybody's relationship or how to navigate those things completely, but that's something that's been really helpful in my life. So...

0:43:45.9 DB: Well, no, it's interesting, I talk with hairstylists or photographers, and they are pretty much... My wife's a vocal coach, and she says a lot of her sessions are pretty much therapy. You go to a very sensitive place, and I think it is valuable, and so you're in a position to do something very, very vulnerable. In some ways, it's... I don't know if you compare it to more vulnerable now, but it's definitely just as vulnerable as therapy. You're going in, you're sharing an intimate side, your insecurities, you're showing up to this stranger, most likely, and I'm bearing pretty much all. And so, no, I think your insights are very valuable. You're having to navigate these very sensitive, fragile topics that are triggering for a large number of people. This is excellent. So, in general, what do you recommend? When do you feel it's time for... Should all women do this?

0:44:46.1 HO: That's a good question. You have all the best questions, apparently, today. Every time you ask a good question, I'm like, "That's the best question." So one thing I strongly suggest, this is also kind of linked to your last question about what can men or husbands do, is I... So I have a private Facebook group for women, and that's a space that's... It's a support group, it's a safe space, and it's a fun group. We have fun things that we post and women can go and ask questions, and so a lot of times I will encourage women who aren't sure if they're in a space to get a boudoir session to go and join that group because it allows them to get a feel forme'. And that is incredibly important. Like you said, this is a very vulnerable experience that they're signing up for. And so that's one thing, is allowing them to get to know their photographer, to decide if this is a safe place, and also to help them, I guess, develop that trust. And then I think every woman's journey is her own. And so, for some women... I guess, to answer your question, the short version is do I think that the only way to feel confident and amazing in your body is to go get naked and take photos? No.

0:46:09.7 HO: Do I think that it's an amazing, incredible opportunity for women to be able to love and embrace their full-body? Yes. And so, for some women, they may decide that it's not for them, and that's totally okay. And then also I'll have clients who, for some of them, they wanna come in and just show a shoulder and that's okay, and for others, they wanna do completely nude. And so I think it's important for me, as a photographer, to meet my clients where they're at, and it's also important for individuals to meet themselves where they're at.

0:46:45.2 DB: Excellent. I love that response. So what are your aspirations? We've heard the struggles, the journey you went through to get here. Who are you now? If you were to describe yourself, what has this success made you? How would you describe yourself as... So let's talk about everything, as a person, your sexual health, what are your views on sexual development? Let's go anywhere you're willing to go. Who are you now?

0:47:19.0 HO: Cool. Cool. Yeah, that's good... Sorry, I don't know why I keep saying that's a good question.

0:47:23.6 DB: I warned you we were gonna go everywhere here.

0:47:27.9 HO: Yeah, I think the biggest thing that has come from my life experiences and, of course, my career choice is that I've become my own person, and I have come to realize that I get to be in charge of filling my own needs, and I get to give myself permission to show up as a whole person, as someone who can create a life that I love. And a wonderful thing that I think has come from that, and I realized that that... This isn't always what happens for everyone, but I have been able to find myself in a relationship that is incredibly wonderful and fulfilling, and there is just so much trust and communication. And that is, a big part, because I did the work for myself, and I believe, whether people are in a relationship or not, they can do that for themselves, they can come to discover themselves. And so sometimes people are like, "Oh, you know, I'm in a relationship now. I wish I had gotten a boudoir shoot when I was single." And I'm like, "You can do this for yourself, whether you're single or not, it gets to be for you." And so I would say as I have embraced my sexuality, as I have done what I call my inner work around loving and accepting my body and myself, it has transformed the way that I show up in life.

0:49:12.0 HO: I feel more confident, and I feel like I'm able to own myself and my choices far more than I ever used to. I used to be a huge people-pleaser. I used to care so much about what people think, and I still find myself in those moments, 'cause we're all human, but I would say, as I have done the work to have a healthy relationship with myself and my body, it has completely transformed, I would say, every aspect of my life.

0:49:45.9 DB: I realize it's a journey. There isn't one point where you say, "Yeah, I'm done. I'm... This is great," but do you feel like you can now experience desire or orgasm or masturbate and feel like there's no guilt here. What's that level?

0:50:02.0 HO: Yeah. Yeah.

0:50:04.0 DB: I wish you guys can see because she's glowing again. It's like, "I own this. There is no shame." Is that what I'm seeing?

0:50:10.6 HO: Yes, yeah, and realizing that God didn't just make these things for me, so for only the use of when I'm gonna create a baby or only the use for a man, or anything like that, but...

0:50:25.5 DB: Have you ever talked about masturbation this openly?

0:50:27.7 HO: No.

0:50:28.9 DB: How are you doing it?

0:50:31.6 HO: I have with my circle, with friends, we talk about masturbation, and all the things, sex, and stuff. I've never really done this with a man that I... You and I just met today in person.

0:50:45.6 DB: And you appear very comfortable. Is that what you're experiencing?

0:50:49.5 HO: Oh yeah.

0:50:49.5 DB: Okay, good.

0:50:50.0 HO: This is great. I love it. And I forgot what your question was.

0:50:55.0 DB: Sorry, this is what we do. We get really organic here. The question was, originally, do you experience guilt around that at all, or are you able to truly bask in it? Like it's joyful... From your facial expression, yeah, it seems like that's the case now, is you own it, and you get to thoroughly use it as a part of happy living. Would that be a fair description?

0:51:20.6 HO: Yeah, and just like you said, it's still a journey, right? And so I am still discovering things about myself and my body, and I very strongly believe that we talk about our sexual ability or powers, or whatever you wanna call that, as, obviously, a way to create human life, and I also see it as a way to create, spiritually or energetically, my whole life. And so, yeah, I don't feel shame around that anymore, and there are still things to learn but it's... I don't know, it's amazing.

0:52:10.3 DB: Still things to learn, you kinda looked off in the distance. Were you thinking of something specific or... What do you mean by that? I agree with the general principle that we're always learning, but was there something specific that you're thinking of?

0:52:26.5 HO: Yeah, let's see. Still things to learn, meaning like, "Okay, I know how to orgasm but that doesn't necessarily mean I know all the different ways to experience pleasure in my life, and how can I continue?" And not even experiencing pleasure, sexually, but...

0:52:46.2 DB: It's not just about the orgasm, you're saying, it's like, "What is my body experiencing?" Is that what you mean?

0:52:52.2 HO: Yeah, and slowing down with my body and being present, and giving my body my attention and loving it.

0:53:02.5 DB: A lot of people refer to, for women, OMGYes. Was that a resource you used? Or what do you do? Or how do you go about experiencing or learning, for you? Is it just a natural thing for you? Or are you using...

0:53:19.6 HO: Yeah, this is interesting, getting very specific. I've used OMGYes, and I haven't used it in a while because it wasn't super-working for me. It wasn't my flavor, but it is something I'd like to revisit, I guess. Yeah, I don't know. I think just trying different...

0:53:42.8 DB: Mindfulness?

0:53:45.8 HO: Oh, yes, yes. Yeah. Well, and that's... I refer to masturbation as self-pleasure and I think that mindfulness and self-pleasure are... They get to be something that's hand-in-hand. That's very... Yeah, it's very fun.

0:54:01.9 DB: It's not surprising because you started your journey off with mindfulness and I think that it's interesting 'cause I think, as a faith culture, we really do try to teach what mindful as think about what other people are feeling, try to teach empathy, but there's this very judgmental side that shuts that down. But you came in with mindfulness, being aware of, you learned early on, "What is your body experiencing?" And so resources like OMGYes maybe weren't the best for you because you're more of an... Correct me if I'm wrong. I'm just interpreting what you're saying here. It appears like you're more of an introverted person. You're insightful about what's going on. You know something's wrong and so you explore that. Is that kind of what I'm hearing?

0:54:49.4 HO: Well, no... So, as far as OMGYes, it was like the techniques just weren't working for me.

0:54:56.5 DB: It wasn't working for you?

0:54:56.6 HO: Yeah.

0:54:56.7 DB: Okay. It just wasn't right for you?

0:54:58.6 HO: Yeah, if we're talking on a physical level, so many things, in the beginning, I had so much pain down in my sexual organs.

0:55:10.4 DB: So you had to address that.

0:55:11.7 HO: Yeah, yeah, and that was... We are getting very specific here, but that was a big thing that also was... I wasn't ready. I'm like, "I can't have sex 'cause I can't even... Everything hurts down there, so... "

0:55:33.0 DB: Yup, so you had to address that, you recognized.

0:55:34.9 HO: Yeah.

0:55:35.1 DB: Yeah. No, that's... Again, this is something we don't talk about, and it is common, whether it's because it's biology, we also see vague... Oh man, I always butcher the word... Vagueness... Which is the painful intercourse, probably butchering that. My dyslexia always kicks in when I go live or try to teach something on board. Somebody's gonna call me out and say, "You said it wrong. You're a therapist, you should know." I know. I know. So, sometimes it's caused by physical development and/or by our perceptions of our sexual health, and so that's an important topic. And I know a lot of people don't realize it, they have painful sex, and it could be because of the good girl syndrome, or whatever. And so you discovered that and you're able to address it, so you're having to handle those issues.

0:56:25.0 HO: Yup.

0:56:26.0 DB: So, back to photography, thank you for going there... So I'm curious, you've gone through this journey of improving your own self-image, of improving your sexual health, and thank you for being so vulnerable with that. I personally... That's my goal, my aspiration in life is when we can treat... I really, truly believe whatever people's definition of sacred is, I really believe we could talk about masturbation, we could talk about intimacy, we could talk about how we overcome these things without it being weird, without it being creepy, and it's about really creating a culture of, "How do you masturbate? What does that look like?" Removing the sexuality, sexual stigma, or whatever you wanna call it, around it, what is your aspiration as you engage in this work? Do you have a hope or a goal of... What do you see the outcome here? If you had your wish, what would it look like?

0:57:35.6 HO: My wish is to help as many women as I possibly can to own who they are, to own their desires, to own what they want in life and to not feel shame for it, to be unapologetic about showing up and speaking out and being heard and being seen, and being totally alright, and... What's the word? Unapologetic is the word I keep thinking about...

0:58:07.7 DB: I think that's a great word.

0:58:08.7 HO: Being unapologetic about being themselves.

0:58:12.5 DB: And you're talking not just their physical self. You're talking about their whole person.

0:58:17.3 HO: Oh, absolutely, yeah, their whole being, 'cause the physical stuff, the boudoir, it seems like it's just something that's happening on the outside. But with every client I work with, no matter where they're at in their own journey, it is an experience that they have an opportunity that they get to do their inner work, and, yeah, to show up physically, but also emotionally, mentally, all the different ways to show up more fully.

0:58:54.1 DB: I'm gonna circle back around because I love your message there, I love the aspiration. It's not just about looking good in your skin. The work you're doing is intrinsic. It's how to be you. In our previous communication setting this up, the word authentic comes up. And I've said this before. I think pop psychology has really watered that down in that meaning, but there's a power behind that, to be able to show up without judgment as much as possible and not fear the impressions and perceptions of what other people... I have had to force myself into that place 'cause I'm actually a very private person. People don't think that because of my public presence, but I do value what people think, but being able to show up authentically. So I wanna wrap around using that thought. I work occasionally... More than occasionally, unfortunately, with women who have been emotionally mistreated in their relationship to... On a big spectrum. I'm thinking, one, I'm trying to keep it as vague as possible here, I think this is relatable to a lot of people who'd been in a relationship for years, and the spouse had particular views of what she should look like, I'll put it that way.

1:00:22.2 DB: And so now that she's coming to herself, she's trying to find a way to... Sometimes I say reclaim, but I don't... She acknowledges she's never had a claim on her body, her identity. And one of the exercises we do, I do, I offer... There are variations of this. I call it the naked assessment. You stand in front of the mirror... You're saying, "Yes." Good.

1:00:49.8 HO: Yes. Yes.

1:00:52.3 DB: And I'll be honest with you, as a male therapist, I knew this was an effective tool because I learned it from my female sex educators, but implementing it was always, always interesting because I'm totally comfortable with offering this, but recognizing some women struggle with it. But what... The way I approach this is, I want you to stand in front of a mirror in all your glory, you're getting out of the shower, you're looking at yourself, and you have a sheet of paper, your phone, whatever is safe for you. Put three columns on it, likes, dislikes, indifferent. And what I say is, "I want you to go through." Not like, "Oh, my legs, I like them." I want you to look at your toes. I want you to see yourself. You've been taught to not see yourself. I want you to first start to learn to see yourself, and then, as you go through, I want you to write down, I like my toes, I like my toenails, I like my ankles, all the way up or down, or however you wanna approach it." If you're done in five minutes, you're doing it wrong. It should be maybe 15 minutes a day, for a week, and you write down the likes, dislikes, and indifference.

1:02:03.2 DB: And a lot of people will go into that, saying, "Oh, the likes. Yeah, I own that." I actually challenge them with this question. I'll say, "Why do you like it? Where did that perception come from? Is it because you have that perfect nose that is on social media and you like it because it conforms?" to start reclaiming or to defining what do I actually like? That's a very difficult thing, as you can imagine. Where I'm going with this is sometimes I've worked with those who have been abused around their self-image, and they've done that, but there's still this very burden, heavy... You're shaking your head. Yes, I think you know where I'm going with this. I'm curious, I guess, maybe from your expression, you're saying yes, have you had to address this in your work? And have you found this type of work to help those individuals to see themselves in a new light? I think we've kind of answered this, but I wanna ask that very specifically, 'cause I know there are women out there who've done everything to reclaim their identity. What are your thoughts?

1:03:17.2 HO: Yeah, first, my thought is... So, I've done the mirror experience a little bit differently. I stand in front of the mirror and I just take myself in. And I've had times where I sit there and I feel so much shame about... You know, like with COVID, I had... I lost weight and then I gained weight, and I had so much shame about how I gained weight. And I knew, in my head, like, "Oh, I shouldn't feel this ." We know with our head, but then we're feeling something different in our body. And so sitting in front of the mirror and allowing myself to cry, and to say like, "Wow, yeah. I feel this way. I feel this way." And really fully holding space for our heart and ourselves to feel those feelings, that's one way.

1:04:13.6 HO: One practice that I use and encourage a lot of people to do, because when we finally give ourselves permission to feel those feelings, that's when we allow them to move to our body, so we don't have to carry them. So that's one thing. And then, as far as with boudoir photography, I will say boudoir photography will not save you, and I don't ever claim that or tell people that. It's amazing. It does change the way that people see themselves. It helps them see themselves in a new light. And at the same time, if there are people who really just absolutely loathe and hate their body, I would suggest that they get help from therapists, from professionals, because I'm not a therapist. I'm not professionally trained to help those in circumstances. And so, yes, boudoir photography is an amazing opportunity to be able to see yourself differently, and also, I would suggest people getting some extra help if they feel like that's what they need.

1:05:28.1 DB: Of course. I'm gonna ask a difficult question now. In your experience, are there particular clients that aren't ready for this? And what does that look like? So that somebody knows whether or not they're ready to take that step. Is there a particular concern that you've seen, that you would caution? Or... I'm kind of going out of thin air here. I just thought it would be a question to ask.

1:05:57.1 HO: Yeah. So I would suggest, you know, invite individuals to look at their reason for doing it. If they are hoping that it will completely save and fix their problems, then they might need to look at that and look at what they're hoping to experience, and how they can find that in whatever ways they need to.

1:06:22.9 DB: Okay. So I wanna clarify 'cause I think that's a great, great point, kinda going along with what you just said a minute or so ago, is if you're coming into this thinking it's going to radically change you without any other work, don't be mistaken.

1:06:38.7 HO: No, yeah. Yup.

1:06:42.0 DB: It can help. It's a part of the process, but if you're coming in with this hopes that it's gonna change, radically, everything you think and see of yourself without doing the work, the work being maybe more introspective, mindfulness therapy, whatever it is, this is just another step in that healthy development. Am I hearing you correctly?

1:07:01.0 HO: Yes, yup, yeah, and so I think...

1:07:05.9 DB: You're not saying, "No, don't do it," but don't assume it's gonna be...

1:07:09.0 HO: Yeah, take a look at your intention and your expectation, because if that's your expectation, then you might be disappointed. However, I would also say if somebody has a desire to do this, I would say that that is an amazing starting point, like, okay, if this is something that you want, then I would say, "Yeah, this is probably something that needs to happen," maybe it's now or maybe it's later. I have some women in my Facebook group who have said, "I'm not in a place... It scares me, but I hope that someday I will be." And that's totally fine, and they follow along.

1:07:48.6 DB: It's authentic. They're being true to themselves. They're not just saying, "Okay, this will solve it," right? And not being honest with themselves. So carrying that authenticity in.

1:08:00.8 HO: Yeah.

1:08:00.9 DB: So if somebody is just doing this without... They're feeling pressured, they're feeling like it's the only way to do it, you're not saying, "Don't do it," but be a little bit more aware of the goal here.

1:08:11.0 HO: Yeah. Exactly. Yeah, if you feel like you're having to drag yourself or you need me to drag you into it, then it might be... You might need some more time. But at the same time, it's perfectly normal for my clients to book and then be like, "Oh my gosh, what did I just do?" And so it's normal to feel a little scared or nervous, and that's okay. And they keep moving forward, and I help them, prep them up to their shoot, and then when they come, I'll have clients here, it's like, "I'm nervous, but I'm excited." And once we get into the session, I'm helping them, I show them exactly how to pose...

1:08:52.0 DB: They get lost in it.

1:08:52.1 HO: Yeah, and it's just this fun... Just an amazing experience for all of us. So, if someone is feeling nervous and feeling, "I don't completely love my body," that is completely, totally normal.

1:09:09.1 DB: I have maybe one last question here for you. You brought up earlier how it's improved your relationships. Are you in a relationship right now?

1:09:18.0 HO: Yeah.

1:09:18.6 DB: Okay, tell me a little bit more about that. I think that's important. How has understanding your sexuality, owning your own body helped the relationship? Give me some examples. I realize this is involving somebody else so I wanna be respectful of that.

1:09:39.0 HO: Yeah, that's okay. We're good. He's fine. Yeah. So one thing is, as I learned my desires around my sexuality and released shame around those, that's also connected to the desires we have just in our normal lives. And I think, for a lot of women, we find ourselves needing to clear through the beliefs of, "I'm not allowed to have what I want or I can't ask for what I want unless it's to bless and help others," or so many different things, or, "I should always be serving" or, "I should always be sacrificing." And so a huge thing with coming to embrace my desires and release the shame around those was seeing how that affects my relationship, realizing... Last week, my boyfriend was having just such a busy work week and I was noticing these moments where I was bidding for attention. And that's totally okay. That's fine. And also I'm realizing, okay, I can ask for... I can use my words and ask for what I need, or if he isn't in the space where he is able to fill that, I can fill that myself because I am my own person. And so I have... In my head, I have my list of ways that I fill my needs. And so I'm like, "Okay, he's busy. He's... " Totally understandable, and that's okay. I'm going to go take care of myself, take care of my needs."

1:11:16.9 DB: So I wanna be clear again here, are we talking intellectual, sexual, all of the above?

1:11:23.1 HO: Yeah, all of the above. Emotionally... So, with that experience last week, I was like, "Okay, I am noticing I need connection, so if he isn't able to be in a place right now, that's okay. I can find connection with my friends or my sister or myself." And so some days, I will realize, "Okay, my need for today is to be with myself," and it's like, "Oh, I need attention for myself, actually," so I'm gonna go meditate, I'm gonna go journal, I'll go take a bath, go pick my nails, whatever. And... Or other days, it'll be like, "I can't... I need other people. I need connection with other human beings," and so that's gonna be my boyfriend or that's gonna be my friend or my sisters. And so it has really helped me become aware of what I need and not expect him to fill all of my needs for me, and realize that I get to do that.

1:12:25.8 DB: I'm gonna point out what... I don't see it as a paradox because I understand that we call that self-actualization. You are your own person, even in a relationship. The way you phrase that, though I think some people struggle with that, I could get that connection somewhere else. Isn't that hurting the relationship? What are your thoughts? I don't wanna put words in your mouth. Do you know where I'm going with this? Does that make sense?

1:12:58.1 HO: Yeah. Yeah. No, it doesn't hurt the relationship. This is something that I love about my relationship, is that we both recognize, "Okay, we have needs and the other person... " We're capable of helping each other fill those needs, and also we have created a safe space and trust with each other to be able to communicate, like sometimes if he and I are in an argument, I have an anxious attachment style, and so I'll be like, "I need you to hold my hand, and sometimes...

1:13:34.7 DB: You communicated.

1:13:36.5 HO: Yeah, and sometimes though, he's like, "I can't hold your... I'm not in a place where I can hold your hand right now," and I have to realize that's okay. And so I can hold space for him not being able to hold the space for my needs if that makes sense.

1:13:50.3 DB: Yes.

1:13:54.8 HO: And because we know, we can ask for what we want and we can be okay with not... With the other person not being able to give it to us. So, we have so much trust in our relationship, and it's not draining, or because we know...

1:14:11.4 DB: It's clear.

1:14:12.8 HO: Yeah, it's beautiful. I love it.

1:14:15.8 DB: I'm gonna have to take you and him on a roadshow because this is like... When I talk with couples, it is so far from what they expect. We use this word in a pejorative, and I think we're all... Even your relationship, that's codependent, in the sense of you understand each other. I don't know if codependent itself is a negative thing, but we do live in a way that's so codependent that if you're not experiencing what I'm experiencing when I need you to experience it, you are a manipulator. You are neglectful in our relationship. The way you just described it is... And forgive me, I'm not trying to put you on a pedestal, but the work you've done has clearly shown up in how you function as a relationship. And because of your self-actualization, of your individuality in the relationship, you have an identity. And we talk about... Whether you're married or not, we talk about relationships as being one, and we misconstrue that as we have to be one on everything.

1:15:13.3 DB: No, you fell in love with each other because you're individuals, and you're able to sit there and say, "I need this. You're not ready to give it to me, I respect that, but I was able to share it, and when you're ready, meet me where I'm at." And you are meeting each other at the right... And that's where I think a lot of people, at least in our faith culture, see that as a paradox. It's like, "No, I'm in a relationship with you, and I have to be your priority." I am being your priority by recognizing I can't give this right now, and I wanna be undivided with you, and that is beautiful, so I'm gonna... Maybe I don't intend it... For it be a loaded question, but do you feel like the work you've done around your sexual health and your photography is why you can do that now?

1:16:05.0 HO: Oh, absolutely. Yeah. I grew up... I was so codependent growing up, and again, I have an interesting attachment style. Even a few years ago, I was in relationships and dating people, where I was just like this energy vampire. I'm like, "I need you to be this for me, and I need... " And so, yeah, I'm a completely different person and different in how I show up in my relationships.

1:16:33.0 DB: What a wonderful, wonderful discovery, and it's clear, just looking at you, you've done the work, you're authentic, you're real. We've covered a lot of topics here today.

1:16:45.2 HO: Yes, we have.

1:16:46.5 DB: And I'm proud of you.

1:16:47.6 HO: Thank you.

1:16:47.7 DB: And you did it so... It feels like it was you. I hope it was.

1:16:52.2 HO: Oh, yes. Oh, absolutely.

1:16:52.8 DB: And any last thoughts or words that you feel like should be shared, whether it's with your work or your experience, anything? What do you feel like this audience of people struggling to know who they are should know?

1:17:10.1 HO: My hope is that those who are listening will be inspired and realize that... That they have what it takes to create the life that they want, the relationships that they want, whatever it is, career, that they can be their own person. That they get to show up as beautiful, perfect in their growth, whole being.

1:17:37.6 DB: I love it. I love it. Thank you, Hope. I think you have...

1:17:40.3 HO: Thank you.

1:17:41.6 DB: And I'm sure you get this a lot, I think you've provided a lot of hope here. So, thank you.

1:17:45.3 HO: Thank you.

1:17:49.0 DB: And I look forward to hopefully doing a live question and A with you.

1:17:51.0 HO: Yeah, absolutely.

1:17:51.4 DB: I think our group members would really appreciate that. So, until then.

1:17:56.6 HO: Awesome. Great. Thank you.

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